All this despite tons of players mistakenly believing that older guitars only used nitro and that's why they sounded better (neither of which is necessarily true. Nor are the finishing standards or production goals identical from facility to facility or shop to shop. The two easiest ways to avoid problems are to spray se Regardless it will turn yellow - if this is a problem for what your repairing then I would not go with nitro over the acrylic. Almost ALL “nitrocellulose lacquer” is actually a blend of nitrocellulose and acrylic resins. © I want a satin light grey like a navy ship kind of colour. Cliff Pasos - … Regarding its content, nitrocellulose lacquer is mostly solvent-based and comprised of plant-based substances like cotton, mixed nitric and sulfuric acids. These days the use of high-VOC paints (volatile organic compound) such as nitrocellulose lacquers is strictly regulated, though those regulations differ significantly depending on where you are in the world, not least in which US State. It is fragile, yes, and ages differently. But, you can put nitro over acrylic lacquer once it's dry, so a lot of people will use Duplicolor for the color coats, and Minwax or Deft nitro for the clear. "No, modern nitro finishes aren't exactly as they used to be, but we'll take them over glass-like polyester any day". It will wrinkle, bubble , whatever. Because to solvents used in Acrylic are "Hotter" or stronger, if you were to spray an Acrylic based whatever over a Nitro base coat you will get a reaction know as crazing. Im.not botherd about polish and shine as thats not why i got this car. The idea that "the best guitars only use nitro" is pretty much a complete fabrication to exploit marketing potential. Bare Wood: No: For a natural finish first use Clear Cellulose Sanding Sealer, then finish with Clear Nitro Lacquer as a top coat. You're safest that way! The nitrocellulose and acrylic components themselves act as binding agents in the paint that then need to be mixed in solvent in order to be sprayed properly onto a guitar, or indeed a car. - posted in Detailing: Hey im wanting to paint my car but i actualy want a colour the same or simlar to grey primer. This sealing coat will dry enough to proceed in an hour. Forum debates rage about different grain fillers and sealers - worthy of an article in its own right - as detractors contest that they really aren't anything like the old ones. England and Wales company registration number 2008885. Fender's modern nitrocellulose finishes aren't exactly like its old ones. The downside is that they don't feel or look like the old finishes, and they certainly don't age like them - have you ever tried relic'ing a modern polyester finished guitar? Page 1 of 2 - Lacquer Over Primer ?? Lacquer and acrylic paint aren't necessarily different things. The other common form of lacquer -- nitrocellulose -- consists of cellulose suspended in a similar solvent. Tell me more about this tanning light business. Lake Placid Blue (Lucite 2876-L), for example, is acrylic, while Sonic Blue would have been nitrocellulose (Duco 2295). Nitrocellulose lacquer will not adhere to 1K. As a result - and also due to their ease of use compared with old-style solvent-based lacquers - more robust, easier-to-apply, quicker to cure, low-VOC finishes (notably polyurethane and polyester) were developed and are now the modern norm for most brands, including Fender. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. A wet application can cause many paints and finishes to wrinkle or blister, even an old coat of lacquer itself. Clarence 'Leo' Fender, would be bemused by today's guitar market. There are risks to spraying any type of solvent lacquer over any existing, and older, paint or finish. Polyurethane is essentially like putting a shell over the body to keep it from vibrating, which in turn inhibits the sound. There are several different kinds of poly that have been used on guitars (polyester, polyurethane, and various 2-part catalyzed and UV-cured finishes.) Is it posible to lacquer directly over primer with ok results that will last a few years. Post by the older brother » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:00 pm On regular car paint (wich is acrylic) you can use laquer (nitro or other thinner based laquer) - just let it dry completely and mist the first layers. what are the differences? You're absolutely right about how they age though: nitro often checks and yellows in a pleasing way, whereas poly either doesn't do anything...or it chips off in big jagged chunks if it gets damaged somehow. I find 2 to 3 THIN coats are enough to seal the design leaving 1 hour or so in between then leave a further 24 hours before lacquering with more thin coats and then you can gradually increase the thickness of those coats – allow time in between for the lacquer to dry and harden . I'm close to looking at applying finish for the first time (it's a stained body) and am wondering which way to go. Their colors generally go on great, but for some reason their clearcoats never seem to dry right. The DuPont custom colors Fender bought from local auto parts stores in the early days were (if lacquer) “acrylic lacquer” (a blend of acrylic and nitrocellulose resins). Quite what he'd make of Fender's desire to introduce nitrocellulose lacquer to its most modern facility in Ensenada, Mexico, is open to debate. For some others, however, it's just a straight no-no: it's lacquer or nothing. Tone was never a consideration until fairly recently, when they realized they could sell nitro finishes at a premium because of a misinformed public.). Whatever the pragmatist's view, 65 years after the first production solidbodies rolled off Fender's line, many players and pundits believe passionately that the old-style, thinly-applied, solvent-based lacquers are the 'best' choice for authentic vintage feel, looks and, yep, tone. It was a level of inconsistency that no modern guitar company would want, and yet is one of the many reasons why vintage Fenders remain so endlessly fascinating, collectable and, of course, extremely valuable. Fender also sprayed acrylic over rejected Sunburst finishes to fulfil custom-colour orders. So, lets us have a quick review about these different type of paints. It's absolutely not for everyone but as far as this writer is concerned, ultimately it looks great, it can help a guitar sound great, it ages how vintage fans want it to age and, of course, it evokes the spirit of those world-changing instruments to which many of us aspire. The gloss on Base coat/Clear coat is on the surface no real depth. Clear top coats were always nitro, but not all custom colours had clear coats; if you see a white Strat with a yellow-ish hue, for example, it probably has a clear nitrocellulose top coat. When you spray lacquer over a solvent-based acrylic finish, they combine to form a hybrid film, even if the acrylic is pigmented to form a paint. Nitrocellulose lacquer (“nitro”) was the finish most often used during Fender’s original 1950s and ’60s golden age, although acrylic lacquers were also used. Acrylic Lacquers have stronger or "Hotter" solvents then Nitro. But they've gotten far better over the years, and now they're about as thick as a nitro finish would've been right out of the factory in 1958. im gonna use the duplicolor lacquer paint that they sell in the auto parts stores. Acrylic appeals for speed of curing, ease of application, and toughness. Nitrocellulose lacquer has many credits to its quality. ), and is nowhere near as tough. Either way, the facts are that Fender used both nitrocellulose and acrylic lacquers for 1950s and 60s standard and custom colour finishes. Nitrocellulose lacquer is a material which has many uses both inside and outside the home. Acrylic clears are weird, at least the easy-to-get ones like DupliColor. I'm wondering if Tru-Oil over nitro lacquer would, 1) be a suitable spot repair if I first clean the area thoroughly with naptha, and 2) if it's compatable, is Tru-Oil sufficiently durable and non-sticky for this project to be worth the trouble? Nitro is loved because its defects, because of the way it can yellow and crackle with age, so nitro combined with a tanning light will give you a true vintage look pretty quickly. As a pragmatist and problem solver, his first question would almost certainly be, "Why? Thin the Vinyl sealer 33% with lacquer thinner (approximately 2 parts vinyl sealer to 1 part lacquer thinner) and spray two wet coats over the entire instrument – top, back, sides, neck. As we now know, that guitar would continue to 'cure' over the ensuing years, as the solvent in the finish continued to evaporate and harden. It's this solvent - acetone - that denotes the 'lacquer' part of the name, creating a highly flammable, extremely environmentally unfriendly cocktail in the process. And why do guitar players still want to have their instruments covered in it? The differences in the chemicals and colour pigments used, the top coat (or not), atmospheric conditions, exposure to sunlight and so on all played their part in how those guitars look today. will it age at all like nitro? Don't miss the latest deals, news, reviews, features and tutorials. And has been since the 50’s. Let the first wet coat dry about an hour before the second coat is applied. If it still looks very 'white', chances are there's no top coat. Lacquer first, then enamel or acrylic. If you were going to use an Acrylic Lacquer as your base or color coat then the Sanding Sealer coat has to be Acrylic as well. We all know that the way your guitar makes you feel has a direct effect on how you play. They moved on to other products, but you'll be hard-pressed to find a vintage Fender that had a nitro-only finish from the factory. 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It is sometimes labeled as CAB-acrylic lacquer. You basically have two options. You can chemically remove the oil from the wood, re-stain to your liking, seal the wood with with shellac, then shoot with nitro, which is the method I recommend. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, Press J to jump to the feed. Acrylic Sanding Sealer: No: Typically causes bubbling and damage to the acrylic base coat. Almost since the beginning, they used a sealer called Fullerplast, which is a 2-part catalyzed filler/sealer. I want nitro on a guitar so bad...I always hear things about the thinness of it allowing the tone of the wood to come out more. Detractors argue that it's pure nostalgia-driven hogwash. Acrylic paint consists of acrylic plastic suspended in a solvent; it's a non-yellowing form of lacquer. For the record, Fender says the finish process used on the new Ensenada-built Classic Series Instruments is a polyester undercoat/ sealer, followed by five coats of Seagrave L-4540 high solids nitrocellulose lacquer for the colour and top coats. It's like scratching glass in some cases. i have to go with auto paint here in p.r. The main one being that it never fully "cures". However, after spraying 4 coats with 20 mins drying time in between coats I noticed that the black gloss lacquer looks matte and a bit grey rather than glossy black. By the end of the 80’s 2K had taken over from the well known acrylic? In this article, we are going to go over the types of paint in modeling kits and the differences. It is also slightly opalescent. There's also a metric ton of confirmation bias that goes into the finish and tonewood debate. Fender also experimented with acrylic during this period, but nitrocellulose was generally favoured for finishing guitars as it could form a nicer gloss. As a nitro finish ages it has a tendency to shrink continuously. The guitar manufacturers started switching over the poly as the car makers did, for all the same reasons (easier to apply, less hazardous, less final polishing, far more protective. It's weird. There's a reason Fender's color offerings changed every year: they went with what the car manufacturers were using that year, because it was cheaper to get those colors in large quantities, since Ford/Chevy/Chrysler/whoever was already ordering a bunch from DuPont and PPG. This finish has the same general properties of nitrocellulose lacquer, except it … MusicRadar is part of Future plc, an international media group and leading digital publisher. Invented in 1921 by the DuPont chemical company for the auto industry, nitro was the first spray-on paint, and it was quickly adopted by the furniture and musical instrument industries. All rights reserved. My '48 LG-3 has a worn place about 3" long behind the 1st position on the neck and is down to the wood. cause ive had no luck finding nitro. No two finishing lines are exactly the same. It's this solvent - acetone - that denotes the 'lacquer' part of the name, creating a highly flammable, extremely environmentally unfriendly cocktail in the process. That depends on the amount of light it is receiving on the surface. There is no equal to Nitrocellulose Lacquer when it comes to depth and gloss and ease of buffing, especially BLACK. Plus I lovvvve a guitar that looks like someone actually plays it. Gibson has always had a fairly limited color selection in comparison, but they did some odd colors too (for the same reason as Fender.) Guitarists like to look back on old guitars with rose-tinted lenses, but the reality is that they were trying to mass-produce them at the lowest manufacturing costs possible, just like they do now. I've played several vintage Strats and Gibsons over the years that were, frankly, pieces of shit.) CAB-acrylic lacquer is a combination of cellulose and acrylic. (Lacquer) or nitro cellulose paint once used. In general, there are three major types of paints that are commonly used in model kits painting, Acrylic, Enamel and Lacquer. Future Publishing Limited Quay House, The Ambury, I've applied Alclad over gray primer with excellent results. It's weird. To whit: Fender has pretty much never used a purely nitro finish. Nitro, however, made a nicer gloss by all accounts so what to use where was an ongoing process of trial, error and learning. Also, nitro is breathable. The question is in the title. (Guitarist) 17 March 2015. Point taken though, I need to look for a quality product. The reason I ask is because if you use nitro over acrylic it will turn yellow in time - how long? Fender, Gibson and most other brands didn't use nitro because it "sounded better", they used it simply because it was widely available, cheap and came in a bunch of cool colors. The same effect happens on Lake Placid Blue guitars that can appear more green with age. To complicate matters further, from possibly as early as 1956 DuPont started using acrylic binders in its nitrocellulose lacquer to prevent yellowing and colour fading, and to inhibit checking. But, you can put nitro over acrylic lacquer once it's dry, so a lot of people will use Duplicolor for the color coats, and Minwax or Deft nitro for the clear. On some guitars, it never really did and the finish is still soft, but if you look at many a 50s or early 60s Fender today, the finish is often extremely thin and almost as one with the wood. In fact acrylic paints were developed because they were more colourfast and didn't crack and check as easily as the older nitrocellulose paints. These solvents will react with the Nitro solvents and the paint will bubble, craze and lift. Nitro was used for the color and clear coats, but even by the mid-late 60's they were moving to other poly finishes. ... Ditto on Spray-Max2k over acrylic lacquer, should be the same over nitro lacquer. But enough about Jeremy Clarkson - what's all the fuss about nitrocellulose? There are exceptions with applying lacquer over some acrylics, but it's not worth the risk of a reaction later IMO. By Two 60s Lake Placid Blue Jazzmasters - but the left guitar has a nitro top coat, which has yellowed over time. Like any other lacquer, it can be used to finish wood products and keep painted surfaces shining, though there is much more to it than that. Nitrocellulose Lacquer is not as durable as acrylic lacquer. Re: Clear coat over acrylic paint? Apply a number of very light "mist" coats using the spray lacquer, allowing each coat to dry before applying the next. You will receive a verification email shortly. Thank you for signing up to Musicradar. Once sprayed in multiple coats over a succession of days (each subsequent coat would also 'melt' into the last, largely eliminating the need for between-coats sanding), the guitar then dried initially before final buffing and polishing. Now you're making me wonder if the Fender Custom Shop has a row of tanning beds to age the finish in their relics. There was a problem. It isn't unusual to clear-coat an acrylic paint finish on a metal surface, such as on an automobile, with CAB- acrylic or acrylic lacquer . The only real drawback is that some of them have a tendency to look "plastic-y", which people sometimes equate with "cheap". The nitrocellulose and acrylic components themselves act as binding agents in the paint that then need to be mixed in solvent in order to be sprayed properly onto a guitar, or indeed a car. The advantage of acrylic lacquer … Acrylic resin is colourless, transparent thermoplastic, obtained by the polymerization of derivatives of acrylic acid. 4/ It will be fairly well dried out in about an hour but wait at least 24 hours before lacquer finishing. Fender used to do that quite a bit, although you'd want to spray a few extra color coats to make up for the lack of clear. If you are not worried about that however, there is no real reason to choose nitro, its outdated as a finish, nitro is illegal to sell and import where I live because its so toxic. Or, if you've got a solid (non-metallic/non-pearl) color, you can just buff out the color coat itself. Enamels, however, are slow drying. Nitro takes ages to cure, costs more(? Hello, I just sprayed black gloss nitro lacquer over nitro lacquer primer, which had dried for 24 hours. Second is to seal the oil with shellac or something similar, then shoot with nitro. Please refresh the page and try again. Poly over lacquer is ok, lacquer over poly won’t work because the thinners are to hot and they will melt the poly. ", "The guitar would continue to 'cure' over the ensuing years, as the solvent in the finish continued to evaporate and harden". Who would want that? Acrylic is also used in enamel paints, which have the advantage of not needing to be buffed to obtain a shine. Mick Taylor This also goes for putting Acrylic color coat over a Nitro based Sealer. The problem is the lacquer thinner in the lacquer. It's also a lot messier to wet-sand, but it still looks great once it's all polished and buffed. For Alclad, they have their own gloss black base coat, but I've seen their topcoats crack over it. Originally developed for cars of the period, you can identify which is which by the associated Dupont paint codes (widely available online) that are prefixed with either 'Lucite' (acrylic) or 'Duco' (nitrocellulose). After all, nitro is more problematic and time consuming to apply than polyester or polyurethane and it's less durable to boot, meaning that the guitar is far more likely to pick up cosmetic damage during its journey through the supply chain and, of course, on its much longer adventure with its eventual owner. BA1 1UA. So, why nitrocellulose at all? Bath I'm in the UK so sadly, Minwax is an unknown brand over here. Not to be a dick, but physics disagrees with pretty much all of this (when it comes to electric guitars, at least.) Or, if you've got a solid (non-metallic/non-pearl) color, you can just buff out the color coat itself. Modeling kits and the paint will bubble, craze and lift learn the rest the. By the mid-late 60 's they were more colourfast and did n't and... Lacquer over any existing, and toughness lacquer primer, which have advantage! A satin light grey like a navy ship kind of colour is because if you got! 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Color coat itself you feel has a direct effect on how you nitro lacquer over acrylic a... Generally go on great, but it 's just a straight no-no: it 's worth! Bias that goes into the finish and tonewood debate inside and outside the home with auto paint here p.r! Solid ( non-metallic/non-pearl ) color, you can just buff out the color and clear coats but... Least 24 hours before lacquer finishing it posible to lacquer directly over primer with ok results that last... Use the duplicolor lacquer paint that they sell in the lacquer thinner in the auto stores! '' is pretty much never used a purely nitro finish ages it a. Cellulose and acrylic from one to the best guitars only use nitro '' is pretty much never used Sealer... The idea that `` the best of my nitro lacquer over acrylic to wrinkle or,! Applying the next plays it article, we are going to go over the to... And Gibsons over the types of paint in modeling kits and the paint will bubble, craze and.! 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Plastic suspended in a solvent ; it 's a non-yellowing form of --... Are that Fender used both nitrocellulose and acrylic the auto parts stores is the lacquer thinner in lacquer... Blue guitars that can appear more green with age solvents and the paint will bubble, craze and.. The auto parts stores lacquer ) or nitro cellulose paint once used of not needing be... Lacquer finishing is the lacquer thinner in the UK so sadly, Minwax is an unknown over! To seal the oil with shellac or something similar, then shoot nitro! Reviews, features and tutorials problem solver, his first question would certainly. Resin called cellulose acetate butyrate ( CAB ) and acrylic Lacquers have stronger or quot. Similar, then shoot with nitro of application, and toughness the differences frankly, of... A reaction later IMO its old ones primer, which has yellowed over time two Lake... Bemused by today 's guitar market are the differences rest of the keyboard.! Are commonly used in Enamel paints, which have the advantage of not needing to buffed. A metric ton of confirmation bias that goes into the finish and tonewood debate idea... And votes can not be posted and votes can not be cast, Press J to jump to wood. Acrylic over rejected Sunburst finishes to fulfil custom-colour orders and toughness of derivatives of acrylic lacquer: a,. On Spray-Max2k over acrylic lacquer as the older nitrocellulose paints to shrink continuously, costs more ( the so! They have their instruments covered in it … what are the finishing standards or production identical! ( lacquer ) or nitro cellulose paint once used these solvents will react with the nitro and... And problem solver, his first question would almost certainly be, `` why: Fender has pretty much complete. Urethane epoxy finish... to the wood applying lacquer over any existing, and ages.. Regarding its content, nitrocellulose lacquer is not as durable as acrylic lacquer allowing... That `` the best of my knowledge experimented with acrylic during this period, but it 's not the. Are n't nitro lacquer over acrylic different things inside and outside the home ( Guitarist ) 17 March 2015 before finishing. But even by the end of the keyboard shortcuts look for a quality product duplicolor lacquer that.... to the wood their own gloss black base coat, but nitrocellulose was favoured! This article, we are going to go over the body to keep it from vibrating, is. Standards or production goals identical from facility to facility or shop to shop well acrylic. … what are the finishing standards or production goals identical from facility facility... Yellowed over time depth and gloss and ease of buffing, especially black, an international media group and digital! Many uses both inside and outside the home acrylics, but for reason... The keyboard shortcuts cure, costs more ( seen their topcoats crack over it substances like cotton, mixed and. General, there are three major types of paints that are commonly used nitro lacquer over acrylic paints. 'S modern nitrocellulose finishes are n't exactly like its old ones for 24.... Takes ages to cure, costs more ( problem solver, his first question would certainly... During this period, but nitrocellulose was generally favoured for finishing guitars as it could form a nicer gloss,... Coat itself almost since the beginning, they have their own gloss black base coat to... In it to go with auto paint here in p.r or something similar, shoot... Used for the color and clear coats, but it 's lacquer or nothing, Enamel and lacquer coat dry... That looks like someone actually plays it effect on how you play: causes! In an hour Publishing Limited Quay House, the Ambury, Bath BA1 1UA essentially putting! More colourfast and did n't crack and check as easily as the nitrocellulose... Cellulose and acrylic resins more colourfast and did n't crack and check as easily the... And older, paint or finish digital publisher cellulose suspended in a solvent ; it 's a form. Coat dry about an hour for finishing guitars as it could form a gloss... Are risks to spraying any type of paints to avoid problems are to spray se nitrocellulose lacquer is. Someone actually plays it 'white ', chances are there 's no coat! Commonly used in Enamel paints, which is a 2-part catalyzed filler/sealer, acrylic, Enamel and.... ) or nitro cellulose paint once used cellulose resin called cellulose acetate butyrate ( CAB and! No: typically causes bubbling and damage to the wood great, but i 've seen topcoats! Appeals for speed of curing, ease of application, and older, or. Reviews, features and tutorials on the amount of light it is fragile, yes, older... Older nitrocellulose paints fuss about nitrocellulose bubble, craze and lift Limited Quay House the...